20/09/2011 - Should pressure ulcers never occur?

#NurChat to discuss "Should pressure ulcers never occur?” 20/9/2011

The incidence of pressure ulcers have for a long time been indicative of good care but is it realistic that they should never occur? NICE guidelines state that every patient should be assessed for their risk of developing pressure ulcers within 6 hours of their admission and if ther are at risk the preventative measures need to be taken.  As nurses we are more than used to ensuring that this happens with the use of such tools as The Waterlow Scale but as the population ages and cutbacks occur is it realistic that pressure ulcers do not exist at all? A recent Nursing Times article by Judy Hawker states "We are seeing an upsurge in the prevalence of patients at risk of pressure ulcers, with an increase in the elderly and underlying risk factors such as diabetes and obesity." With this in mind are we striving to achieve the unachievable ?  (Thanks goes to @anniecoops for this discussion suggestion)

To help with our discussion this week we are holding an opinion poll - this can be found in the top right hand corner of this page.

Click the picture to download a printable PDF for notice boards.

If you would like to do some background reading prior to the discussion there are some interesting articles linked below:

The Management of Pressure Ulcers in Primary and Secondary Care - RCN

The Prevention and Treatment of Pressure Ulcers -National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellance

Pressure Ulcers Will Still Be Seen Until Basic Care Is Right - Nursing Times

The High Impact Actions For Nursing And Midwifery 4: Your Skin Matters - Nursing Times


Pressure Ulcer Tool Brings Incidence To Zero - Nursing Standard

An Introduction To The SKIN Bundle And It's Implementation - NHS Wales

Skin Assessments Of Patients At Risk Of Pressure Ulcers - Nursing Standard

Focus on Pressure Ulcers - Gerry Bolger

Adventures in Hourly Rounding - You Tube

Summary by Teresa Chinn RN
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Post Chat Summary

This discussion started off by asking if it was felt that pressure ulcers were indicative of good care ?  It was clear that it is not always black and white and that sometimes pressure ulcers are unavoidable and so it was suggested that pressure ulcer prevalence is not always an indicator of good care as the root cause must be explored.

The NHS Wales initiative SKIN bundle was also mentioned and shared (a link to more info can be found above)

Early assessment in accordance with NICE guidelines was discussed and it was generally agreed that early and ongoing assessment played a key role in pressure ulcer prevention.

Some good and bad examples of care were shared- from using egg whites in the 1980’s to sacrosanct turning regimes in the 1970’s and examples of good practice within the private sector and recollection of grade 4 pressure ulcers.

Wider issues were also mentioned – staffing, staff morale and equipment all added to compounding the prevalence of pressure ulcers.  Reducing the risk of pressure ulcers by using good basic nursing care was also discussed and intentional rounding was highlighted – a link to a you tube video mentioned during the chat can be found above.

Thanks goes to @anniecoops for the suggestion for this great discussion. Thank you to all those who took part and as always please feel free to share this transcript with colleagues.

Summary by Teresa Chinn RN
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Chat Transcript (reverse chronological order):

Feature | Block PamNelmesFoH Thank you all for a refreshing #nurchat #nursepowerSOS 9:06 PM
Feature | Block NurChat we r thinking about providing a certificate of participation 4 future Nurchats - do u feel this would be useful for portfolios etc? #nurchat 9:05 PM
Feature | Block NurChat and also @gerrybolger contributed some really useful info - linked on the blog. #nurchat 9:03 PM
Feature | Block NurChat Thanks goes to @anniecoombs for this subject suggestion #nurchat 9:02 PM
Feature | Block PamNelmesFoH Love it SOS @p4fabs Search for adventures in hourly rounding on you tube. Save our skin. #nurchat 9:02 PM
Feature | Block NurChat There are links to information on the SKIN bundle on our blog and also we will now post a link to Hourly rounding #nurchat 9:01 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat thanks all in twitterland 9:01 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 @NurChat Thanks everyone! Its been lovely as usual! Very interesting topic :) #nurchat 9:01 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor Keep up the good work out there guys :) #nurchat 9:01 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @NurChat twas a pleasure #NurChat 9:00 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @p4fabs: Hourly rounding, simple but genius. Search for adventures in hourly rounding on you tube. Save our skin.#nurchat #nurchat 9:00 PM
Feature | Block NurChat we are winding up tonight’s chat - thank you, it's been truly refreshing to see the nursing community striving to combat this issue #nurchat 8:59 PM
Feature | Block p4fabs @p4fabs Hourly rounding, simple but genius. Search for adventures in hourly rounding on you tube. Save our skin.#nurchat 8:59 PM
Feature | Block Danielwhite1986 the trouble is PU and in particularly assessing PAs differ in each individual nurses priorities #nurchat 8:59 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat we also highlighted our most vulnerable patients ie patient with epidural and loss of sensation 8:58 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor RT @nursiedeb: #nurchat back to vasics. Good PAC, good nutrition, good record keeping, good communication all vital. Some staff don't visualise PAs daily. 8:57 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @KevinHamUoP: #nurchat also removing ted stockings to check sites - good point a cursorary glance is not good nursing #nurchat 8:56 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @hannietaylor @AgencyNurse i think that if more senior nurses took that appraoch then we would have a different NHS #nurchat 8:55 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @AgencyNurse that was my response. If I don't touch patients how can I assess & plan care. Back to basics for that one #nurchat 8:54 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @nursiedeb yes i think that all this is very important - well said #nurchat 8:54 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat also removing ted stockings to check sites 8:54 PM
Feature | Block SuzetteWoodward RT @p4fabs: There are lots of wards in the NHS who haven't seen a pressure ulcer for years. Intentional rounding and reliability are the key #nurchat 8:53 PM
Feature | Block nursiedeb #nurchat back to vasics. Good PAC, good nutrition, good record keeping, good communication all vital. Some staff don't visualise PAs daily. 8:52 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @hannietaylor OMG !! surely patient care is every nurses responsibilty be they HCA or Matron !! #nurchat 8:52 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @NurChat agreed! #NurChat 8:52 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @nursiedeb: #nurchat its so positive seeing so many people all with the same goal of excellence in patient care. We are an awesome profession! 8:51 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @AgencyNurse yep, I was on a Ward, I was worried when a student said I will get a hca to clean patient, not your job as sister :-/ #nurchat 8:51 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @hannietaylor @susiqa its odd with tenchnology tody there isnt central tracking on an inviduals records-we don't share enough info #NurChat 8:50 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat also outlawing bad practice ie massaging bums! Rubber rings and gloves filled with water! 8:50 PM
Feature | Block nursiedeb #nurchat its so positive seeing so many people all with the same goal of excellence in patient care. We are an awesome profession! 8:50 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @PamNelmesFoH @KevinHamUoP i agree auditing is important --- but lets not forget to actually care ! #nurchat 8:49 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat an abundance if evidence to show braden more effective and hence we used ebp to change practice nationwide over 50 hospitals 8:49 PM
Feature | Block PamNelmesFoH RT @KevinHamUoP: #nurchat and also auditing continually by recording variances on care pathway 8:48 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @susiqa I was talking about that today. Lots of groups, most of which don't have systems that comunicate with each other #nurchat 8:47 PM
Feature | Block
AgencyNurse RT @KevinHamUoP: #nurchat staff education and leaving waterlow behind also helped - do you feel braden is better? #nurchat 8:47 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat and also auditing continually by recording variances on care pathway 8:47 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @hannietaylor @p4fabs agreed it is the basic skills that nursing needs to return to, all too often i see nurses behind desks #nurchat 8:46 PM
Feature | Block SuzetteWoodward Like --> RT @p4fabs: Let's be the generation of nurses who eliminate the blight of healthcare acquired pu. #nurchat 8:46 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat staff education and leaving waterlow behind also helped 8:46 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @hannietaylor @susiqa its frustrating that NHS,Social Care,GP'S do not have a central communication point for patient issues #NurChat 8:46 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @p4fabs: Lets be the generation of nurses who eliminate the blight of healthcare acquired pu --- lets aspire to 0 incidence #nurchat 8:45 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @p4fabs: Let's be the generation of nurses who eliminate the blight of healthcare acquired pu. #nurchat 8:45 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat we reassessed patients routinely when care changed... 8:45 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @p4fabs looking at the patients makes a big difference. Observation & Assessment, our basic skills :) #nurchat 8:44 PM
Feature | Block p4fabs Let's be the generation of nurses who eliminate the blight of healthcare acquired pu. #nurchat 8:44 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @p4fabs: There are lots of wards in the NHS who havent seen a pu for rs. Intentional rounding and reliability are the key #nurchat 8:43 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat we had the time and staffing levels and resources which may not be possible in nhs also converted to braden score 8:43 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @susiqa: @KevinHamUoP do you feel this was very effective? - and was it followed up by ongoing assessment? #nurchat 8:43 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @KevinHamUoP: #nurchat in the private sector where I previously worked we assessed and implemented pressure ulcer care immediately from admission 8:42 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @KevinHamUoP i have often found that assessment within 6 hrs has not been done ! #nurchat 8:42 PM
Feature | Block p4fabs There are lots of wards in the NHS who haven't seen a pressure ulcer for years. Intentional rounding and reliability are the key #nurchat 8:42 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @susiqa quiet agree. Good & appropriate care should be the priority of all care services #nurchat 8:41 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 RT @KevinHamUoP: #nurchat in the private sector where I previously worked we assessed and implemented pressure ulcer care immediately from admission 8:41 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @KevinHamUoP do you feel this was very effective? #NurChat 8:41 PM
Feature | Block stuartrobson RT @hannietaylor: The nhs as a whole need to take into account provision of appropriate equipment & assessments & staff in prevention of PU's #nurchat 8:41 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @NurChat @p4fabs agreed we cannot rely on pressure reliveing aids - some nursing needs to occur #nurchat 8:40 PM
Feature | Block KevinHamUoP #nurchat in the private sector where I previously worked we assessed and implemented pressure ulcer care immediately from admission 8:40 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @hannietaylor I think this should apply to social care as well #NurChat 8:40 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @acne_skin: the SKIN bundle (from what i can gather) is all about making skin care a priority again - apparently lead to a 0 incidence of PUs!! #nurchat 8:39 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor The nhs as a whole need to take into account provision of appropriate equipment & assessments & staff in prevention of PU's #nurchat 8:39 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse do you find the NICE guidelines of assessment in 6 hrs realistic? i often see this not done #nurchat 8:39 PM
Feature | Block NurChat @p4fabs good nursing prevents pu.Proliferation of 'press relieving aids' will not prevent pu. They are just conduits to good n care #NurChat 8:38 PM
Feature | Block acne_skin the SKIN bundle (from what i can gather) is all about making skin care a priority again - apparently lead to a 0 incidence of PUs!! #nurchat 8:38 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 @AgencyNurse Definitely. Would be interesting to know what they are doing to tackle the problem with PU's. #nurchat 8:38 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @susiqa: @AgencyNurse lack of equipment/low staffing levels affects morale & can be a significant contributing factor, - yes #nurchat 8:37 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @Gage91 i agree but can we learn from one hospital ? #nurchat 8:36 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @AgencyNurse totally agree #NurChat 8:36 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse i think that we have to distinguish between avoidable and non avoidable pu's - avoidable should be 0 incidence #nurchat 8:36 PM
Feature | Block NurChat @p4fabs hi Peter, thanks for joining in, if you add #nurchat to your tweet we can all see your comments :) 8:35 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 @AgencyNurse But we should look at the wider NHS, not just one hospital. Focus on improvement of care and REDUCTION of PU's :) #nurchat 8:34 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @AgencyNurse lack of equipment/low staffing levels affects morale & can be a significant contributing factor, #NurChat 8:34 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @Gage91 agree, in an ideal world they don't happen. We don't have ideal world & there are lots of variables #nurchat 8:34 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @Gage91: 0 incidences on Pressures Ulcers is certainly not a reasonable target. - but this has apparently been achieved in 1 hos #nurchat 8:33 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 0 incidences on Pressures Ulcers is certainly not a reasonable target. #nurchat 8:32 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @hannietaylor: @AgencyNurse it has an Impact, Hence why RCA needed to see if it is "organsiational" failure rather than care #nurchat 8:31 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @Gage91: Nurses are human too, take away funding and cut staffing and you wont get fantastic care #NurChat #nhs - agreed #nurchat 8:30 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @AgencyNurse it has an Impact, Hence why RCA needed to see if it is "organsiational" failure rather than care #nurchat 8:30 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @susiqa @hannietaylor @AgencyNurse i feel i sadly have to agree #nurchat 8:30 PM
Feature | Block NurChat do you think that 0 incidences of PU's is realistic? #nurchat 8:30 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @hannietaylor @AgencyNurse Agree- sadly not all nurses follow best practice although the majority would #NurChat 8:28 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse how does everyone feel about other influences in pu incidence eg lack of equipment, staffing levels etc? #nurchat 8:28 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 @susiqa @AgencyNurse @hannietaylor Nurses are human too, take away funding and cut staffing and you won't get fantastic care #NurChat #nhs 8:28 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @AgencyNurse a good RCA takes everything into account & if it is shown that it is poor care then, yes we all have to be accountable #nurchat 8:27 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @AgencyNurse @hannietaylor @Gage91 If they had failed to do anything about it then yes #NurChat 8:26 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 RT @AgencyNurse: RT @susiqa: Has anyone worked with a regime that is really effective in the majority of cases? - old fashioned repositioning ? #nurchat 8:25 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @hannietaylor @Gage91 agreed finding the root cause and tracing it back should happen - should nurses be held accountable for this? #nurchat 8:25 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @susiqa: Has anyone worked with a regime that is really effective in the majority of cases? - old fashioned repositioning ? #nurchat 8:23 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @Gage91 getting to that stage, questions should be asked as to how it has developed to that point #nurchat 8:23 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @susiqa good point - apparently pu's that occur within 72hrs of hos admission do not need to be reported because of exactly this #nurchat 8:23 PM

Feature | Block NurChat RT @susiqa: I would assume many incidences have started off before admission, when the indivual is not in the care radar i.e. home alone #NurChat 8:22 PM
Feature | Block susiqa Has anyone worked with a regime that is really effective in the majority of cases? #NurChat 8:22 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @Gage91: I've seen grade 4 PU's severely necrotic and ischaemic, they should never be allowed to get to that point, that indicated poor care #nurchat 8:21 PM
Feature | Block susiqa I would assume many incidences have started off before admission, when the indivual is not in the care radar i.e. home alone #NurChat 8:21 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @Gage91 i have seen similar and i agree it is shameful #nurchat 8:20 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @PamNelmesFoH: @AgencyNurse Well as the largest organ and our best protector I say skin should take its rightful place centre stage #nurchat 8:19 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse i think that early assessment and ONGOING assessment is deffinately key #nurchat 8:19 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 I've seen grade 4 PU's severely necrotic and ischaemic, they should never be allowed to get to that point, that indicated poor care #nurchat 8:19 PM

Feature | Block PamNelmesFoH @AgencyNurse Well as the largest organ and our best protector I say skin should take its rightful place centre stage #nurchat 8:19 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @susiqa Agree, assessment of patients is very important, key pointers can be picked up early on & reduce the severity #nurchat 8:18 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @Gage91: @AgencyNurse I totally feel early risk assessment is important, as NICE advises within 6 hours of admission - agreed #nurchat 8:18 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @susiqa: @AgencyNurse I agree. identifying those at risk early on must reduce severity - but does it reduce incidence? #nurchat 8:18 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse RT @hannietaylor: Safety express by DoH looks at "harms", PU is 1 of them, so so does that mean all can be avoided in the DoH eyes #nurchat 8:17 PM
Feature | Block NurChat RT @hannietaylor: Safety express by the DoH looks at "harms", PU is one of them, so so does that mean all can be avoided in the DoH eyes #nurchat 8:17 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @nursiedeb surely some pu's that are unavoidable then? as i have come across the same, despite all the best care they still happen #nurchat 8:16 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 @AgencyNurse I totally feel early risk assessment is important, as NICE advises within 6 hours of admission #nurchat 8:16 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @AgencyNurse I agree. identifying those at risk early on must reduce severity #NurChat 8:16 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor Safety express by the DoH looks at "harms", PU is one of them, so so does that mean all can be avoided in the DoH eyes #nurchat 8:16 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @Gage91 yes i agree prevention is key .. doyou feel that early risk assessment is important? or just more paperwork? #nurchat 8:14 PM
Feature | Block nursiedeb #NurChat. Pts r older & often polymorbidities hence ^in pressure sores. Despite 2hrly turns & all the kit we sometimes still get them ICU 8:14 PM
Feature | Block PamNelmesFoH @AgencyNurse No! As a student I was horrified to see necrotic tissue and deep cavities called a 'pressure sore'. #nurchat 8:14 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 Prevention is definitely most important, however we've also got fantastic ways to treat PU's now too, for example MDT #nurchat 8:13 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse the SKIN bundle (from what i can gather) is all about making skin care a priority again - apparently lead to a 0 incidence of PUs!! #nurchat 8:13 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @PamNelmesFoH @susiqa lol ... did it work ????? #nurchat 8:11 PM
Feature | Block PamNelmesFoH @susiqa I recall seeing the worst pressure sores in the early 1980's being subjected to egg White and oxygen regimes! #nurchat 8:11 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @Gage91 i guess that its down to finding the root cause of the pu - if you can #nurchat 8:11 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @Best_Blue_Dress very good point, compliance makes a big difference #nurchat 8:10 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @AgencyNurse no, but thanks for the advice- will look it up #NurChat 8:10 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 @susiqa Neglect is a very strong word #Nurchat 8:10 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @Best_Blue_Dress yes i can imagine that in the community things are very dependant on that #nurchat 8:10 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @hannietaylor agreed all areas are different - so it is not necessarily an indicator #nurchat 8:09 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 For example, it is sometimes very difficult to prevent PU's in a patient with very poor tissue viability, despite good care #nurchat 8:09 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @Gage91 it takes time for PU'S to present present- would you agree neglect in some from of another could be a root cause #NurChat 8:08 PM
Feature | Block Best_Blue_Dress On the whole, yes. But there are exceptions, I'm a community staff nurse and patient compliance is a huge factor on our caseload. #nurchat 8:08 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @susiqa interesting - have you seen the SKIN bundle that NHS wales are implemeneting ?? #nurchat 8:08 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse @Gage91 i would agree with you - as there are some PU's that are unavoidable #nurchat 8:07 PM
Feature | Block hannietaylor @NurChat I think its a broad statement & there are different factors. A community setting is different to a hospital.#nurchat 8:07 PM

Feature | Block NurChat RT @susiqa: when I trained back in the 70's we hardly ever saw patients with pressure sores on the wards 2 hr turning regimes were sacrosanct #NurChat 8:06 PM
Feature | Block susiqa when I trained back in the 70's we hardly ever saw patients with pressure sores on the wards 2 hr turning regimes were sacrosanct #NurChat 8:05 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 I don't think its as black and white as that really, I don't believe ulcers can always be said to be an indicator of poor care #nurchat 8:05 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse i think that PU's play an important role in indicating quality of care in any care environment #nurchat 8:04 PM
Feature | Block NurChat to kick off .. do you feel that the incidence of pressure ulcers are indicative of good care ? #nurchat 8:02 PM
Feature | Block NurChat so tonight we are discussing pressure ulcers and whether they should never happen .. #nurchat 8:01 PM
Feature | Block Gage91 Looking forwards to taking part in #Nurchat now, interesting topic tonight! Hope my connection doesn't play up! 8:00 PM
Feature | Block AgencyNurse evening all .. Teresa here #nurchat 7:59 PM
Feature | Block susiqa I'm lurking too #NurChat 7:59 PM
Feature | Block NurChat @susiqa hi coming through loud and clear :) #nurchat 7:59 PM
Feature | Block NurChat @MargieClayman feel free to lurk away .. anyone else out there? #nurchat 7:58 PM
Feature | Block susiqa @AgencyNurse thanks- hopefully on the right line now #NurChat 7:58 PM
Feature | Block NurChat .. and that your views are all your own and not necessarily those of NurChat #nurchat 7:58 PM
Feature | Block MargieClayman hi #nurchat - your topic today is relevant for one of our clients, so I'm lurking :) 7:57 PM
Feature | Block NurChat please remember that nurchat is a public forum and must be treated as such in accordance with NMC guidelines.. #nurchat 7:57 PM
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